The Mosque Question

You do realize the Koran encourages believers to lie to infidels to advance Sharia law worldwide. The mosque is a monument to their victory over the great satan. The author is waving the white flag surrendering his common sense.

Tireater:

You do realize that the Bible encourages believers to commit genocide against peoples who stand in their way. So I guess we should remove all religions that rely on the Bible from the protection of the Constitution because all of those believers are obviously genocidal maniacs.

Touche.

PK:

I'm impressed with your response to Tireater... As far as I could tell, he was pointing out what the Koran taught, not, in your words, relying "on the Bible from the protection of the Constitution."

Slightly aggressive.

Especially when your argument is based on your incorrect opinion that "the Bible encourages believers to commit genocide against peoples who stand in their way." Simply not the case.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but to refer to all Bible believers as genocidal maniacs leaves your post tough to take seriously.

If tireater wants to consider all Muslims deceitful because their holy book supposedly counsels deceit, then by the same logic he would also need to consider followers of the Bible genocidal maniacs because their holy book says things like this (1 Samuel 15:3): "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." --That's a direct instruction from the Lord to commit genocide. Sorry if it offends you to have this pointed out, but it simply is the case.

Sorry if you missed the irony, but of course only an idiot would claim that all followers of the Bible are genocidal maniacs.

pk:

No offense taken at what you quoted... If you would like we can begin a discussion for the context of why that order was made, and who the Amalekites were, and what they had previously done to the Israelites during their trip out of Egypt, but I'm not sure that this is the proper forum for that. No doubt, however, there was a direct instruction to commit genocide.

Now, the problem with this is that you took a single instance, an order from the Lord to the Jews, and from that, decided that "the Bible encourages believers to commit genocide against peoples who stand in their way."

In my opinion, this is a very weak place to set a foundation for your argument. Are you seriously saying that the Bible encourages it's followers to destroy anyone who stands in their way based on an order given to the 2 million strong nation of Israel on their way out of Egypt? Or am I just missing the irony again?

Just pointing out where the "logic" of tireater's argument leads if one were sufficiently deranged to take it seriously.

I like it when God just skips the middle man and does it himself:

2 Kings 2:23-24 (King James Version)

"And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
"And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."

note: I never make fun of bald men.

The beautiful hymn "Rivers Of Babylon" is based on this nifty passage:

Psalm 137

- 1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

- 2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.

- 3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

- 4 How shall we sing the LORD's song in a strange land?

But somehow the last part of the psalm didn't make the lyrics:

- 7 Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof.

- 8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.

- 9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Binky:

What exactly are you trying to prove? Your posts are obviously not in any way about a mosque being built... Maybe just another chance to put down Christianity? Should we go through each verse of the Bible that you pick out and study them to put them into real context, or is it just more fun for you to pick some out to make fun of?

I'll take the time to walk through each one of the above passages with you, but not if the only point of your posts are to mock the Christian faith.

Let me know.

You could look at the history of all religions and derive whatever serves your purpose/agenda. Given the history of comments from the leader of the quest to build the Mosque, I think it's fair to ask who's funding the Mosque? It would be naive to make the freedom of religion argument whilst our enemies take advantage of this naivety to establish a foothold within our borders.

I am a spiritual, but not religious person who finds it humorous to see how those who would question/challenge every possible presence of the Christian belief, but defend Muslims right to do pretty much whatever they want. Me thinks that they pretty much could care less about Muslim's and Mosques, other than to use them as a tool to further their personal agenda against Christians.

It's vicious nonsense to claim that someone who wants to build a mosque must be considered an enemy of America until he or she has proven otherwise to your satisfaction and is not entitled to the same Constitutional protection of religion afforded every other citizen of this country. In particular, when you say "our borders," you clearly mean to exclude Muslims from being legitimate members of "our" country even if they were born here or became citizens. Who assigned you the task of deciding who has Constitutional rights in "your" country?
And can you name a single person who is defending Muslims' right to do "pretty much whatever they want" (what else, besides the right to build a mosque, are you referring to?) but have a personal agenda against Christians?

If there were a being trans-fantabulous enuf to create the Universe, said being wouldn't fit into the wretched little "boxes" (canons of scriptures) prescribed to it by religiosos of ANY persuasion. Most religions want converts, but not so many that they'd stop being special. Pipelines to The Infinite need to be somewhat exclusive. When you're special, you get to ride the short bus.

... the short bus to a SPECIAL resort in the sky.

... the Express short bus, if you're wearing explosives. Quote selectively to refute that, if you must. God is always contradicting itself, in order to prove its superiority to mere human logic, no doubt.

BTW, I agree whole-heartedly with Mr Baruch, ha ha. Govt should not interfere with free exercize of religion.

Adonis_Tate, please don't post while loaded.

I'm excited to hear PST explain the "context" of the quotes that PK and binky have provided. It sounds a little bit like he may actually attempt to condone genocide and the slaughter of infants, as long as they deserve it. You know, based on context. This should be entertaining.

I think it is hillarious how defensive Christians have become when people start holding up a mirror to their scrutiny and attacks of other religions. It is clear that they are the only religion in this country that has been allowed to "do pretty much whatever they want", and that includes hypocritically imposing restrictions on people of different faiths.

All I can say is, dont be surprised when fingers start pointing back at you. If you want to use the bible as a weapon against homosexuals, dont be surprised when people no longer want to see them in hotel room drawers. If you dont want mosques built in NYC, dont be surprised when people dont want churches built within a sex offenders radius of schools and playgrounds. If your leaders want to fund and send troops to war against people of another faith, all while incorrectly calling the US a Christian country... dont be surprised when they send troops here.

Reading some of the above comments I am terrified that a severe and widespread mental illness remains undiagnosed.

no doubt. We need a lot less 'followers' and more 'leaders', and I don't mean religious.

Christians should follow the examples of Christ. Christ would not condone or advocate genocide or any of the other things Binky quotes from the old testament. My belief is that if everyone (me included) tried a little harder to live a little more like Christ, the world would be a much better place. I think a lot of modern Christians have lost site of this very important item. I'm not advocating some weak, apologetic version of Christianity...but temper it with the grace and forgiveness that Christ showed.

rcobban:

Do you seriously believe that the Bible encourages genocide and the slaughter of infants? Christians go to church and are taught to wipe out anyone who gets in their way, and kill some babies while their at it? I hope you aren't that misinformed.

As I posted earlier, I'm happy to help bring context to quotes that were simply pulled from the Bible without any background in order to attack Christianity, but if I'm simply posting here to provide you with "entertainment," I'm not sure it would be time well spent. After all, do you really want to have an intellectual discussion with someone stricken with this "widespread mental illness?" I don't think you'll really want to hear what I'd say anyway.

You are free to be as angry with Christianity as you please, and I take no offense to it, but to be honest, I'm not sure whether to take your post seriously or simply recognize that you're just taking an opportunity to vent.

First point: The author of this letter speaks the truth. A letter well written. Second point: agreeing with him does not make one surrender to fanatical elements of Islam. Third point: when Jesus came upon those who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery, he told them that who among them that is without sin could do the deed, and then when they realized they were sinners and left, he told her "neither do I condemm thee" and told her to "sin no more".

It seems clear to me that the purpose of Jesus's ministry was to take an approach of nonviolence, even though there are those of you who love to quote the Old Testament.

Grow up people: we have religious freedom in America, which means atheists, Muslims, Christians, and all others live side by side. The ground over which people are fighting in New York is just another patch of dirt on Terra Firma which people have arbitrarily made sacred.

To the Christian bashers I have this analogy: Let's say you find yourself driving through some very tough inner-city neighborhood with which you are not familiar and your car breaks down at night. You see a group of about half a dozen big burly young men walking toward you, as they approach you, you look up the street in the direction from which they are coming and see a church and then see that they are carrying Bibles. Will your reaction be one of contempt, or relief?

I have read some interesting emails regarding this. Some make a point that it is raising a gauntlet that Islam has made a victory against the infidels (non believers in Islam) and put it in peoples face that Islam was victorious. Some point out that Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia would not permit a Synagogue or Christian Church to be built in there Capitol or large metropolitan city.

I read Mr. Baruch's opinion letter and all the above comments with interest. I agree with Mr. Baruch, but I question the tone and accuracy of the remark "religious intolerance that is the hallmark of al-Qaeda and other extremists." Others are no doubt better informed than I am about the relative tolerance of members of Al-Qaeda, though I am not sure if any surveys have been conducted. When we hear edicts about "infidels" and "Great Satan," I agree they sound pretty intolerant. However, my understanding is that the terrorist attacks of 9/11/01 were more about the perceived affront to Islam and Muslims by the presence of U.S. military bases on ground considered sacred in Saudi Arabia, and not intolerance of the beliefs of others. Much as we would object to another country establishing military bases on U.S. soil - though for sentiments based on national pride rather than religious objection, Osama bin Laden and others find it intolerable to countenance a foreign military presence in Saudi Arabia. Talking about extremists, I am much more concerned with the Christian extremists commanding the most powerful military force on our planet than extremists of other faiths. I think that U.S. presidents responsible for massive bombing campaigns and interventions which killed millions of innocent people in Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq and Afghanistan, and elsewhere, responsible for covert operations and support for right wing military dictatorships and rebel groups resulting in millions of deaths throughout Latin America, Africa, Asia and the Middle East, etc, etc., are much more "extreme" than Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and their ilk. President Obama is just continuing the same trend by escalating military operations in Afghanistan, and apparently, like his predecessors, he won't get the message of the futility of believing that the U.S. has the right and ability to impose by military force a system of government on another country whether the people want it or not, until he has murdered hundreds of thousands of people, either with soldiers on the ground and in the air, or with robots operated by videogame jockeys in Langley VA. Now that's intolerance; that's extremism.

If you think drugs turn a persons brain to mush, try religion.

as to your analogy Bill, it depends...

am i a bosnian muslim standing on a street in srebrenica 15 years ago? am i an obvious homosexual standing on a street in jackson, mississippi... 5 years ago? or perhaps im just a 9 year old boy... in any time period.

in all cases, yes my palms are starting to sweat and my knees are shaking.

PST: the bible doesnt encourage anything in particular, the stories are vague and can be interpreted in any way the reader chooses. its the people who hold it that do the encouraging. it is the mushy play-dough minds of the religious masses that can be manipulated to do literally any evil thing. i hate to break it to you but history is on my side on this one.

i imagine you are picturing some quaint little christian church in your hometown as you write "Do you seriously believe that... Christians go to church and are taught to wipe out anyone who gets in their way, and kill some babies while their at it?". For a second please take your blinders off and instead picture a quaint little church in Rwanda. Where the doors are being locked so that children can be burned alive inside, or hacked to pieces with machettes (by a priest no less). Try to expand your knowledge of history on a more global scale, then we will see who is misinformed.

The mental illness that I describe is faith. Not faith as in optimism, the kind of faith that stands at odds with evidence and logic. People who have been infected by faith are just tools to be manipulated by the next powerful person who chooses to do so. The pro-christians in this post may have their hopes up that the powerful person in question will always be a good guy. I assure you... it will not.

Oh... my fault, rcobban. I guess I didn't think about all the Bible teaching churches in Rwanda that are instructing their congregations to burn children alive. Obviously an overlooked point due to my blinders.

Strange to call me the misinformed one in this instance...

Yes... sigh... i suppose you didn't. "Blind-eye" is one of the main symptoms of the faith infliction.

I invite you to inform yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanase...

or just google Athanase Seromba

Oh, I see. So one deranged Catholic priest that brutally murders hundreds, proves that Bible believing Christians are mentally ill because of their faith?! You are sounding more ridiculous each time you post, rcobban.

It's funny that you bring up Rwanda because both times I've been there, both times to quaint little churches as well, I've not been instructed to murder any children. But I'm sure that my view of this on a global scale is not nearly as accurate as yours. I must not have gone to the churches that you're so certain of that teach to murder innocent children. Where are they?

While you may be personally upset with Christianity for one reason or another, to simply point out a terrible instance and refer to it as the norm makes any point you're trying to make difficult to take seriously.

And in the future, I would encourage you to expand your knowledge by studying the Bible on your own before you make any claims about what it teaches.

One priest?.... One time?... were you in Rwanda for the food? because you seem to be confused about the horrors that went on there. Wait, I think I see the trickery in your wording... you say you didnt go to any churches that taught to murder "innocent children"... but what about EVIL children!? (I'm still waiting on your explaination of the context of the bible passage referring to the genocide of the Amalekites. Thats where you explain that killing their kids was okay because they were the "bad guys" right?)

PST i confess, you caught me. I found the one instance of Christian genocide in the past 2000 years and brought it up just to hurt your feelings. Please..... let's be realistic, I can post instances of Christian cruelty, rape, murder, genocide, war instigation, cultural decimation, hatred and bigotry until the internet explodes. But alas, none of that will help you will it, (see mental illness).

Yes I am personally upset by religion, as most uninfected people should be, and are. I am upset because I dont like it when kids get raped, and I dont like it when innocent people get murdered (crazy me). These things can happen without religion, I know. But only with religion will someone be so delusional as to think that the dollar they put in the church basket last Sunday will go to help the sick or poor. Any sane person reading the news will see that it went to pay out a massive court settlement for yet another rapist who will see no jail time.

I dont know how else to say this, your club is full of rapists, murderers, felons, and freak shows. When I see someone with a tattoo of the virgin mary coming down the sidewalk, I cross the street because they are probably in a violent gang. I will never leave my children alone with a priest, and I count all of you mental melt-jobs paying these pedophile's legal fees as accomplices. Time to start a new organization lest ye be judged by the company you keep.

My greatest hope now is that you are right, your god exists, and you all get raptured BEFORE you start a nuclear war.

"as to your analogy Bill, it depends...

am i a bosnian muslim standing on a street in srebrenica 15 years ago? am i an obvious homosexual standing on a street in jackson, mississippi... 5 years ago? or perhaps im just a 9 year old boy... in any time period.

in all cases, yes my palms are starting to sweat and my knees are shaking."

I'm talking about the here and now. What I've noticed over the years is that there are people who love to keep bringing up the sins of the past. These are the people who feel WE should apologize for what the white man did from the time the first slave was brought to our shores until 1865.

I also point out--much to the discomfort of those scoffers that their postmodern utopia is pretty much here: their hated Christians are on the run since the "do whatever feels right" mentality has taken over, yet in spite of this, we still have all these problems with social ills, rude people, gangs, broken homes, and so forth.

As I say, I can dig up what the Turks did to my ancestors, but I can assure that when Dr. Mehmet Oz comes on the T.V. screen I don't go running to jump on my camel.

Obviously there are those who simply love to keep picking open the scabs of the past and re-infecting them, as opposed to moving on and addressing present-day issues--most of which have nothing to to with religion but rather simple greed.

Even in communist regimes the same petty infighting and jockeying for power exists.

sigh... so much denial... so much delusion. Bill wants current events ladies and gentlemen so here we go:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/...
This abortion doctor was shot a year ago. Sorry to bring up something so far in the past. This story is totally over because he was the very last doctor that will ever be shot by a christian wacko... right?

Oh and here's a neat site I just found:
http://www.bishop-accountability.org/

Bookmark that Bill, it will update you daily on the priests being openly accused of abuse.. wait... did you hear that?? I think it's the sound of a child being molested in a church as we speak. Sorry to pick at that scab... or is it an open wound that wont heal because christians are in so much denial that they do nothing and think this problem is old news??

Before I forget:

Soldiers from a nation publicly declared to be Christian by their previous president are currently involved in a hostile occupation of multiple muslim nations throughout the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. Oh yeah, and they have bible verses printed on their scopes. Only time will tell whether this will be listed in history books hundreds of years from now as just another crusade in a war thousands of years old.

The rest of your comment is a bit scattered, mentioning race and communism, I will leave those topics for another article.

My point is, Christians are still starting wars, molesting kids, and discriminating against homosexuals, among other evils. Pretending that all of the problems of the church are in the distant past is naive in the gentlest of terms, and only serves to allow these issues to continue and worsen.

rcobban: none of your above post pertains to me in any way. Let my explain why. Anyone who knows my views knows that I have taken a very hard line against the catholic church because of their coverup of the child rapes. Also, I am clearly anti-war and have even offended some of the progressives by pointing out that their president is pro-war.

Your attempt to spin this conversation against me by making such insinuations is sad and ill informed based on my well known position in these matters.

Bringing this back to Home Base: when I see bloggers who can only criticize either the A: Left-wing/liberal approach, or B: the Right-wing/conservative approach, it makes me realize what a long way people have to go before we can achieve a functional society.

The issue isn't about Christians, it's about the evil of human nature. THAT'S what I've been going after for quite some time and as my previous post entries indicate, I go after all sides.

Bill my comment was not directed at your personal lifestyle choices, it was in response to your comment about:

"sins of the past", and "picking open the scabs of the past and re-infecting them, as opposed to moving on and addressing present-day issues".

These are still very much present-day issues, a fact which I see you concede in your next comment.

So rcobban, does it register with you that people of ALL demographics rape and kill?...or do you only attack those who do it in the name of Christianity? This is what is disturbing to me: that so many bloggers take one side or the other.

The difference that I see between us is that I go after everyone and am not fixated on attacking just one side.

Of course it registers with me Bill, and I dont appreciate rape or murder no matter who is doing it. I'm not sure if you caught my line about faith being a mental illness, but I think I have made it clear that I am not a fan of any religion. I know we have come a long way in this post from the original article, but this whole thing stems from a "holier than thou" attitude that Christians are taking toward Muslims on this issue of the mosque being built, and that is why I have singled them out for a brief history lesson. I have to take the side of the mosque on this one Bill, because only with complete freedom OF religion, can we hope to have freedom FROM religion.

If you read the posts in this thread written by Christians you will get the definite sense that there is a "we are the good guys and we have a duty to keep the bad guys under control" attitude, and that is what I seek to dispel. The only way to do that is to try to show Christian the cruel truth, that THEY ARE ALSO THE BAD GUYS, and that they should think twice and look to themselves and their own evils before trying to hypocritically attack or pass judgement on others. I'm not going to reread through all these comments at this point but I believe someone already mentioned that line about "casting the first stone", maybe it was you.

For what it's worth, I'm a Christian and have no problem with the Muslims putting up the mosque where they want to put it. I also agree with you about the silliness of keeping the "bad guys" under control. Moreover, I dare to question the U.S. Middle East policy which (if people are honest about human nature) has created the enmity which from what I can see, was not widely felt about century ago. (What is the U.S. doing over there anyway?)

As for me being a Christian and you an atheist, there's no point debating it; you think what you think and I think what I think.

My only other point is a question: Is it only those who claim to be Christian who are against this mosque? Are there not Jews, Atheists, Agnostics who also are convinced that moving the site of the mosque is going to make everything magically go away?

Honestly Bill, yeah I think it is 99.9% christians who are against the mosque. They are the only people who watch fox news.

99.9% is quite a citation. According to that I'm in the .1% that thinks Fox news is lobotomized information with bad taste.

not really important but my last comment implies 99.9% of fox viewers are christian.not 99.9% of christians watch fox... thankfully they do not have that many viewers. and that statistic is exact, i read it on the internet.

"not really important but my last comment implies 99.9% of fox viewers are christian.not 99.9% of christians watch fox... thankfully they do not have that many viewers. and that statistic is exact, i read it on the internet."

I see. If a statement fits your agenda, you throw in out like mud and hope it sticks--just like the way you misquoted me in the following story.

http://www.independent.com/news/2010/... (your September 18th, 4:39 a.m. post)